Agree or Disagree? Bali-nine duo to be executed tonight.

[Marked 197]

I don't know if you guys are aware but this has been in the news a lot recently as two members of the "bali nine" have attempted to save themselves from execution. 

 

Their crime was planning to smuggle 8.3 kg (18 lb) of heroin from Indonesia to Australia (They're from Australia). 

 

There's been some diplomacy around it. Australia has tried its best to save the two ringleaders who are going to be executed in a few hours by firing squad. It has all failed however. Indonesia is a sovereign country and it has the right to enact its own laws over its own land (...the US and other jurisdictions have laws which, according to them, apply to everyone no matter where the crime takes place).

 

The death sentence is there for a reason. Actually I think we have an active Indonesian member so I'll be careful what I say here because I don't know too much, but the law is there to stop the drug problems in the country. It's pretty much the most extreme disincentive to stop drugs coming into the country (even though these guys were taking it out). 

 

What do you guys think? A proportional punishment for a problem that is destroying lives? Or is that link far too remote to punish an individual with death to scare the others?

[Polraudio 122]

I don't know much about this but...

Tip: Know what your getting yourself into. So its their own fault.

Don't do the crime if you cannot pay the fine no matter what it is.

 

I think it would be a good example. Less scum in the world.

[Bob423 52]

I voted disagree because, if they're from Australia and taking stuff TO Australia, then Australia should be the one deciding their punishment. Indonesia shouldn't care if someone's moving drugs out, only if they're moving it in. They could find where they got it and put a stop to that though.

[black mage 28]

Disclaimer : I'm an Indonesian, so when I said here, I actualy mean Indonesia. :)

 

Let me clarify something first. Everything related with the illegal use of drugs, be it using or distributing, or just having it, is a like a taboo in here, except you're on the other side. :annoyed:

 

About the crime itself, 4 of them are getting caught because of illegal possession of the drugs, one of them are accussed for assisting them on getting the heroin, and the rest of them are charged for smuggling and illegal possession of the drugs. By some investigation, it's known that they're working together and all of them are caught on Bali, hence nicknamed Bali Nine.

 

I was checking the law of narcotics (in Indonesia) myself. It's clear that they violate a lot of law from the narcotics section. The the exporting and importing stuff are also written there, and it's prohibited to do so illegaly, so I'm sorry Bob, but your argument is invalid.

 

It was stated from the law if the smuggled drugs (already processed, not in plant form) are weighted more than 5 grams, they're getting death sentence, or spent their entire life on prison, or at least 5 up to 20 years in prison. Heck they're smuggling 8,2 kilos.

 

FYI, crime is not very tolerated here if it's known by public. Let's say that you tried to steal from someone here, and by some cases you're getting caught in the act by some civilians, you'd be very lucky if you're handed to the police with just a few scratches. The usual cases is you have several bones broken, or in a critical condition, or dead. The latest hottest cases is armed-motorcycle-robery. The culprit that's unable to runaway is burned down right on the criminal scene. Seriously, if you're trying to do some crime here, make sure your chance of getting away is more than 200%. :P Yes, Indonesian civilians sometimes are scary, but don't worry, we're nice enough as long as no one is getting hurt. :)

 

So, by checking the laws, yes, I agree with the sentence.

And, by checking the resident psychology, yes, I agree with the sentence.

 

EDIT :

The two that's gonna be executed is the ringleaders, and the rest are getting life imprisonment, except the one whose getting just 20 years in prison. Actualy, all of them are given death sentence, but by pleading and something, they managed to get the sentence reduced.

Edited April 28, 2015 by black mage

[Marked 197]

Ahh it's you :P Duno why I was thinking dolar, I was really thinking about you :)

 

Yeah I thought the crime itself related to possession and not in fact smuggling into the country. 5grams, that is crazy. 

 

I'll briefly give me opinion as I'm not fully conscious. 

 

I believe that an eye for an eye is just (it is, all else equal, by definition, right?) and I have no problems with someone losing their life for intentional murder. However, no State should posses this power to end a life and such laws are flat out wrong. The reason for this is that a government cannot never be certain; the State must adduce evidence and its up to the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (in our jurisdictions) that the person satisfied every element of the crime. For me, a life cannot be decided over reasonable doubt by an imperfect judge and perceptions of an ordinary jury. 

 

And I'm talking about murder here, not mere possession of drugs. To illustrate my point, 8 of 9 people were executed last night. One was spared because another person confused to planting the drugs on her. You see, you can't be certain and human life should not be subject to imperfect evidence and assumptions. 

 

Finally, there's not evidence for mine that the death penalty is the best way to go about a deterrent and managing Indonesia's drug problem. I'm not a psychologist but there's been studies into this sort of thing and I believe the current position is that there really isn't enough evidence to justify it as a deterrent.

 

Secondly, Indonesia has pleaded with other countries to spare their citizens from their death penalty. Just as Australia did to it. 

 

I suppose it was ballsy of Indonesia and the President to stick by its guns (sorry for the pun...) and I think a country has to stand up for what it believes in. But I do think the death penalty, especially for this crime, is wrong and should be changed.

 

From the outside looking in, I'd say if Indonesia wants to deal with its drug problem then it should get off its ass and hit the streets. It's easy to execute people, very easy. So I'll wait for Black Mage to tell me if that perception is wrong or not :) I haven't been to Indonesia but I've been to Borneo island and I know most people's point of view on this forum.... they probably won't understand the cultural differences of the south east Asians and the differences in cultural values and ethical behavior. 

[black mage 28]

I'll talk about the origin of the law it self then. As we all know (or not) Indonesia is one of the biggest Islamic country, and most of it's law is created by adopting the law of Islam. In Islam I found several source (Yes, I can't clarity if it's true or not) that stating the law about the drugs dealers, and it just similar to the law I've presented before. And since Indonesia is adopting this kind of law, it's hard to attack Indonesia law without attacking the Islam law altogether. I can't argue much on this since it's a religion and it'll be pointless to do so.

 

I'll take another perspective then. If we're talking about an eye for an eye, I have just a good example. An illegal weapon dealers. Yes, they're not killing people, but the stuff they sell is killing a lot of people and I think we can agree that killing the perperator wouldn't be enough to cover the loss. I'll leave this discussion for another time, but I think the illegal weapon dealers deserve to be killed (I should said that firearms possession is somewhat prohibited here). Now let's look at the drugs dealers. They're not killing people, but the stuff they sell is killing the user, slowly but sure. And the bad thing is, most of the user is a mere new generation, ranged from age 7 and above. In case you guys don't know, babies here is smoking tobacco and I'm not kidding (it's due a bad parenting of course). Addicted drug user can only become a worthles for society, and if a lot of generation is an addicted drug user, it could only mean that the new generation would be a worthles generation, and of course it'd be bad for the country. Only bad things that would be happened if things left just like this. School war (already happened since ages), early pregnancy (already started since recent years), meaningles anarchy (not happened yet, or I just don't know :P ), etc.

 

I think Indonesia is already at it's limit for tolerance for this stuff, and under the new president (he's inaugurated last october, I think) a lot of unimaginable things has happened like bombing of illegal fishing ship on Indonesian sea, and this thing. FYI the death execution (not counting 8 people that died yesterday/today) on this year is the highest since, I dunno, more than 10 years ago? Well, I can't say that I agree with the method (of execution) as I myself is on the gray area here. So let me throw a bit of conspiration theory.

 

It is well known that Indonesia is one of the highest corrupt country in the world. Many things has been tried to reduce this number but most of it is failed. The only succesful method on recent year is the KPK, the commission that handle corruption with authority and power more above almost any institution here, yet they still not succeed on eradicate the corruption perfectly. It's already been a discussion in recent years that there's should be a law that stated a corrupt institution officer should be given death sentence. However, this law is never legalized, due people start talking that "it's not good just to kill people" with their argument and reasoning, just like what we're doing right now. The bad thing is they're not realized that many infrastructure is broken, jobless people are here and there, economy falling, prices went up and several other bad stuff is happening because of corruption, and yet the corruptor is just like sentenced 5 years or so and they're free. Let's take a look at example on my previous post. Stealing could get you death but not for corruption. It's pretty much like stealing but you're stealing from the country, as in stealing from many people altogether, with amount thousand times the usual amount the everyday people stole, and yet you can go free after 5 years or at most 20 years in prison. How contradictory is that? the corruption itself can be appointed as a treason. So, in order to have this law (the one which stated that corruptor should be killed) legalized, I think that "they" think that people should accustomed with execution, that's why things went like this. But yes, all of this is just my theory. :)

Edited April 29, 2015 by black mage