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Broken Messiah

Why do you still use RMXP?

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I simply don't understand why people are still using it. It just seems so...inefficent compared to its newer versions. I do believe that Ace was mis-marketed as it is NOT a program I would reccommend to any newbie. I really think VX did a great job, though I am on the fence about whether or not chibi was the way to go.

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I stick with XP because it can do everything all the others can without having to jump through hoops.

 

Mapping:

XP's mapping is superior  in every way IMO. Sure you can port your graphics from XP over to VX/A but that takes lots of time and lots of planning just to get it to work correctly. A different graphic per layer is a huge pain. I wanted some objects to overlap other objects in VX/A so i had to use the same object 2 times on different images just to get it to be on 2 different layers where in XP all i had to do is select a different layer saving me 5-10min.

 

Autotiles are a huge pain in the ass. I hate the fact that you have to know what sections of the image are suppose to show up transparent, what ones are animated or not. Same with the walls. Took me a while to figure out that the top 2 ground autotiles are solid and the bottom 2 rows are the ones that show up transparent. Sure you can use parallax mapping but you shouldn't have to jump through all those hoops to get the game to look like you want it.

 

IMO the mapping is the #1 thing in any game cause if you have bad mapping chances are people are only going to play the game till they see the mapping. You could have the best story and gameplay in the world but bad mapping can ruin a whole game.

 

Database:

Sure the database has a few nifty things like notes and a few things here and there that i dont use anyways. Not much of a difference here.

 

Sprites/Graphics:

Only thing i really liked was the icons. Having 1 sheet for all the icons is a good idea. Not sure if theres a limit of how big the icon sheet can be but if there is another limitation you can run into if you have lots of items.

 

The character graphics are not bad but annoying when you have to have a !$ in the file name in order to show them as a single character per graphic.

 

Now chibiness is well meh in my book. I thought we broke away from chibi characters in the 90's.

 

Gameplay/Scripting:

Theres lots of neat things they have done with the gameplay like sprinting, airships, boats, TP, and 60fps. But all that stuff can be done with scripts in XP. Sure 60fps is nice but the human eye cant see more than 30fps anyways so i dont see why people are always "But its got 60fps and that makes it worth it and better"

 

The screen resolution is something every RPG Maker was bad at. Give us at least 720p(1280x720) or custom resolution enterbrain instead of this 90's 640x480. I highly doubt anyone has anything lower than 720p now days.

 

RGSS3: I havent played with it to much but with what i have played with i still prefer RGSS1.

RGSS3 to me in a nutshell is methods inside methods inside methods. I cant remember what script i made an edit to but i had to edit 4 scripts to make 1 little edit.

 

Events: Havent noticed anything new/worth using than XP.

 

Final Notes:

Give me XP's mapping, sprites, and icons and i would switch over any day.

 

So thats all the reasons im still sticking with XP. Mapping being the main reason cause the tiles are a pain in the ass and still limited like crazy. IMO VX and ACE are a step backwards from XP.

 

Sorry for the little rant. People need to know where some veteran RPG Maker users stand.

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XP does win in the tileset area but I think(not sure) that ace returned to that system. And there doesnt seem to be any limit to the icon sheet but i had a 10000 icon sheet once that was 6mb and it causes bad slow downs in game.

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I agree 100% with Pol. VX Ace has some awesome features that I wish XP had, but they don't quite make up for it's problems.

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I simply don't understand why people are still using it. It just seems so...inefficent compared to its newer versions. I do believe that Ace was mis-marketed as it is NOT a program I would reccommend to any newbie. I really think VX did a great job, though I am on the fence about whether or not chibi was the way to go.

Well I don't understand why people use VX, which seems so inefficient compared to XP. :p

 

As far as I'm concerned, as a scripter, what matters most to me is the software's limitations. I mean, if it doesn't do exactly what I expect, I can still program it myself. BUT I can't get around the soft's limitations, and both VX have a LOT more than XP do.

 

Plus, you would expect the RGSS3 interpreter to be faster than its previous versions, and after running tests I can say it actually has about the same performances - it is even slightly slower. And this sucks since the engine's (dramatically low) performances definitely were the number one thing to improve, and they didn't.

 

Other than that, just what Pol said. Each so-called improvement they made, they made in a bad way. For example relying on autotiles is neat in theory and can save a lot of time fo the user, but if you're forced to use autotiles and it doesn't allow to do what you want, then it turns into a limitation.

 

In short, I feel like XP allows me to do more than any of the VX can do. And all of my work is potentially not compatible with RGSS2-3, so there's no way I'm remaking everything to match the specifications of what I consider a lesser software.

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Because Moonpeal is smart so I follow him...

And Marked is smart as well so I follow the same guy as he does.  :grin:

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An interesting topic...look at it this way:
 
1) RM 1995-2000-- Still used by some today and vastly shows the beginnings of software that could evolve over time.
 
2) RM 2003-- It changed from it's previous versions and implemented a basic animated battle system. However, mapping (as in older versions) was limited.

 

3) RM I, II, & III-- Bringing it to the console was a bad idea (released at different times and console life cycles).

 

4) RMXP-- My personal favorite, however, they down graded the battle system to their 2000 battle system and introduced scripting.

 

5) IG Maker-- LMAO at this....far better stuff out there!

 

6) RMVX-- Upgraded scripting...downgraded battle system even more (1995), downgraded mapping system, downgraded graphics....not worth it in the end.

 

7) RMVX Ace-- The biggest pile of shit so far. They simply UPDATED a few things that was wrong with VX (and none that actually meant anything) and added a few new features. So in truth people are buying something that could have been released as a FREE patch. This is like Sony creating a Bly-ray player that doesn't update the firmware for the blu-ray drive and forces you to buy a new blu-ray player instead.

Edited by Noob Saibot

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I've never used VX or VX Ace. XP is what I started with and I don't want to spend money on another program that basically does the same thing. Also, I know RMXP, so there would be a slight learning curve with a new program. Also, I don't like the chibi characters.

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I agree with Saibot, specifically when transitioning from 2003 to XP the improvement was obvious except for the battle system, but with scripts I could bypass that. Since 2003 only had events and XPs event system was basically an extension of it transferred really well.I also agree with Pol as well that VX mapping is terrible compared to XP even if its visual fidelity is higher, also the human eye doesn't see in FPS but xp can do most of what vx does natively through scripting. I haven't tried ACE but it has a cool sounding name but what I've seen looks a lot like VX and that's no good.

Edited by Enigma

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There are a LOT of things about VX+ that drive me up the wall.

 

First of all, I DESPISE Chibi Sprites.  Sure, you can import from other engines and download them, but they aren't appropriately sized.  Combining XP style Sprite Sheets causes a complete and total clash in visual styles, as well as a completely screwed sense of scale.  Characters that walk in and out of doors and or caves are larger than those doors or caves.  Large Trees in XP were five and six tiles high.  VX+ they all got shrank down to a max of 2 tiles high.  Oh, and they removed FOGS from XP when VX came out.  Another terrible decision.

 

The visual style of VX as far as Maps go is absolute ASS.

 

They wanted to make everything an Autotile.  Bad move.  They wanted to get rid of Layers altogether.  Another very bad move.  They screwed up the sense of Scale.  Another horrid move.  Mapping in VX to create anything that looks original, detailed, and unique is like trying to paint the Mona Lisa using fucking Lite Brite or an Etch A Sketch.  It was as if when VX was in concept, their goal was to remove everything that made XP great and replace it with crap.

 

Admittedly, with XP, learning how to Layer was an obstacle, but once someone figures out that any larger object does not have to be maintained on one Layer, the level of detail went through the roof.  When VX was first announced, I had hoped that they were going to improve the style and allow for even more creativity, but instead, they went completely the opposite direction and took that specific level of control away from the mapper and slapped everything into one layer and an Event Layer.  Their actions limited my specific ability to put things exactly where I wanted them.

 

VX compared to Ace

 

VX prohibited Battle Backgrounds.  Another totally backwards move.  VX Ace on the other hand had two layers of Backgrounds, and for me, that was a step in the RIGHT direction.  There was very little difference between VX and XP in regards to the Database, but VX and Ace, again, a step in the wrong direction.  Things became unnecessarily complicated and still did not allow the creator the level of control they needed.  VX lacked a Caterpillar, and Ace included a Caterpillar.  Map looping was also maintained.  Not entirely useful except in World Maps.  However, as I said earlier, that sense of scale is just shot and that eliminated any usefulness for a World Map.

 

XP vs Ace

 

There are some features in Ace that I would love to have seen in XP.  Videos, Wait for THIS move to Finish (Eventing), a Customizable Title Screen, and Multi Layer Battle Backgrounds.  But frankly, thats about it.  Maybe the Framerate.  Even the Sprite Generator still forces people to use those Half Sized Sprites that are no where near as expressive as a Full Size Spritesheet can be.  Those half sized sprites lack the ability to create and convey a characters moods, and that sense of mood prevents game creators from telling compelling stories without excessive levels of work.  The same things were accomplishable in XP by simply changing a characters pose (kicking their foot out).  Other graphical things like the ability to warp and distort the screen, sprites, and other things would be a nice addition, but a twisty background is not a prerequisite for a good game.

 

There is absolutely nothing that I've seen in Ace that could not be fully accomplished in XP with Scripts.

 

I've written quite a few scripts myself.  Everything that I've ever wanted to be able to do in XP has been accomplished in some way shape or form.  A comprehensive Caterpillar.  Fading Events.  Dynamic Sounds.  An ATB Front View Battle System.  Event NPC Enemy AI.  Customizable Title Screen.  Timed Inputs.  Clouds.  Warping Backgrounds.  Additional Event Conditions.  Pseudo 3D Terrain Mapping.  Stealth Elements.  Message System.  Everything.  Check my sig, everything I've mentioned and list below is in my "Collection".  And theres even more that I think could be used to push the envelope even further.

 

XP Ace

 

If Enterbrain ever decided to work on XP Ace, there would be a relatively long list of things that I'd want.

 

Return to XP Visual Style

XP Sprite Generator

- More "Poses" for Sprite Sheets, not just the standard Walking Animations.

- Importable Resources for creating Templates for Sprite Sheets

- Expressions for Sprites

More Layers for Mapping

Distinct Tilesets for both a World Map, and Normal Map with appropriate Scale

Vehicles (which needs to include Repeating Maps for World Map)

Sound Emitters for Dynamic Sounds

Give me back my FOG with Alpha Channels!

Comprehensive Caterpillar

Custom Title Screen (at least similar to VX Ace)

Better Weather Control

- Particles

- Direction

- Intensity

- Lightning

Better Earthquakes

Control over Screen Scrolling

Tons of Details available from Tileset

Better Chests (prevent player from Wasting Items)

Dump the Random Dungeon Generator

Return to the Four Way Directional Passage Controls

More Terrain Tags (like 256, not just 8)

Terrain Flags for Ladders, Ice, and Enemy AI Visibility, Counters, Etc.

Walk in Shallow Water

Better Bush Depth (include Water Walkable for shallow Water)

 

- Events -

 

Player can Turn Toward Event

Event Fading / Transitions

Movement Acceleration

"Flat" Events

Autotiles in Event Graphics

Event AI (see my Super Event Sensor)

Conditional Movements

Pathfinding

Wait for THIS event to finish moving (XP vs VX+)

Wait for Condition (anything other than THIS event to finish)

Scriptable Event Conditions

Sprite Effects (IE, Shrink, Squash, Dissolve, Resize, Rotate, Distort, etc)

Animatable Hue

Remote Control for "Self Switches" for Events

Ability to Synchronize Event Timing

Animation Steps (smaller characters step more frequently than large characters moving at same speed)

Event Patrol Area (Part of an Enemy AI) Per Page

Ladders and Event Affected by Ladders

Ice / Downhill Ice

 

- Message System -

 

Better Message System, period.  Personally, I still love MMW over everything else.

 

- Battle System -

 

Ditch the Attrition Battles, Emphasis on ability to have Strategy with Eventing

Elemental Attacks

Optional ATB (Active / Wait, my Battle System is a Wait Only) Battle System enabled or disabled by Creator

Post Battle Dialogue

More Battle Event Page Triggers (IE, Ralph Item Equipped and Monster 2 and 3 are Dead)

Scriptable Event Page Triggers (IE, Condition: Script)

More Functional Equipment (IE Final Fantasy, Double XP sword, convert XP to Gold, etc)

Bonus Exp, Gold, Items, Etc.

Optionally Animatable Battlers (Phantasy Star 2, Front View)

Layer Control for Animations (Animations that appear in front of or behind a Battler)

Animatable Background Layers

Fog / Weather in Battles

Reflect Spells

 

- General -

 

Publisher Scenes (IE, Capcom, Konami, etc)

A fucking Credits Scene, not just a "you died, game over" Picture

Demo Play

Video Playback

FULLSCREEN at Game Start

Variable Shop Prices

 

- Training -

 

One of the biggest learning curves with ANY of the RPG Maker series is that we are not really shown by Enterbrain what all of their efforts can come together to produce.  Instead, we got a fucking HELP FILE.  Yeah, just read the Help File.  Thats not Training.  Training is showing you IN GAME what you can do, or in a Video.  In Ace, they gave us a few Template Maps.  But thats not Training either.  Training would be "How to use Layers" to make a Detailed World.  How to create an Enemy Event with AI.  Click here, check this, uncheck that, respond to this, don't respond to that.  Many of these things would be better EXPLAINED how to create a Door or a Chest instead of spending the time to create one of those things from a Template. 

 

- Enterbrain Needs to Build A Game -

 

When we write scripts, we often create Demos so we can teach people that use our Scripts how to use them.  To have a Battle that works like this, go here, check this, do that, and that does this.  This is why I did it this way, or this works like this.  We teach each other how to accomplish what our scripts are intended to accomplish.  But when we get a verson of RPG Maker from Enterbrain, we get almost NO HELP.  It might even be nice to see Enterbrain themselves put together a Game using their own products to create a full product.  Here is how to make a game, beginning to end.  If they did that, they'd be able to figure out what else is missing in their RPG Maker products.  It wouldnt have to be a monster game, just maybe a short example game.  A couple maps, a couple of characters, at least ONE Boss battle that requires Strategy over Attrition.  A game built by them that gives us an example of how to accomplish something, like a Chest, or a Cutscene, or how to create a Boss Battle.  How to roll credits, etc.  It would also give them an opportunity to say, "Hey, wouldnt it be cool if..." then they either decide to build it in, or they dont because it wouldn't be used for the time it takes to build it.

 

I know for a fact that Enterbrain has taken a look at my work.  After running the Trial on Ace, I noticed quite a few things that were just far too coincidental for Enterbrain to have not ever looked.  The dead giveaway was one Panorama file called "Sea of Clouds".  Frankly, Im honored to have had Enterbrain observe my stuff.  I have no problems with them grabbing ideas that I've shown and trying to find ways to implement them into newer versions of RM, in fact, I really encourage it.  Guess what.  They've probably taken a look at your stuff too.  Maybe not the Games as much as Scripts and other ways to enhance existing engines.  This tells me that they DO listen, but maybe not in the ways that we expect.  They probably dont read forum posts, but if they see game after game after game coming out that are all using a replacement battle system, they're undoubtedly going to take a look at that battle system to find out why it is being used over their stuff.  Dont believe me?  Why do you think VX Ace now has "Followers"?  Its because the Caterpillar Scripts are used quite a bit.  Enough that they were noticed, and Im sure people did make requests for a built in Caterpillar.  And sure, its functional, but thats mostly all that we need.  The one I have in my "Collection" (sig) admittedly is absolute overload as it throws in a huge number of features that are not related to a Caterpillar at all.  Like Event Fading, Flat Sprites, and Movement Controls.  I can understand from their point of view if XP Ace ever comes out, with a Caterpillar, if it does not have every single feature mine does.  It isnt worth the time for them to build.  An Event AI on the other hand, I strongly believe absolutely IS worth their time and financial investment to put into any newer releases of RM.  We dont need them to plug in every feature we've ever come up with.  But in order for us to be able to build those creative enhancements, we need a solid foundation and framework to build off of.

 

And that, sorely, is exactly what the VX series lacks.  Is a solid foundation.  Our tools of creation have been taken away in favor of a simplified toolset that not only limits our creativity, but weakens that foundation upon which everthing else is built.  The reason that the more complex, yet, more functional tools failed was not because of the tools themselves, but lack of information on how to use those tools to create what we want to create.  When XP came out, it was a step up from its predecessor by allowing us a greater degree of creative control.  It also marked the first time that we had real access to the scripts that controlled the way our games worked.  We had access to both the Scripts as well as a comprehensive toolset that we could use.  When VX came out, while we still had access to the scripts, we did not have access to put back in the tools that had been removed.  Like Layers, as those were not part of the Scripts for the game, but rather the Editor.  Its not that we need access to manipulate the Editor as we see fit, but if the Editor is lacking, there is almost nothing we can do to fix that.  We cant just Script in Layers back into the editor, they need to be there to begin with.  What is needed IMHO is to leave us with more tools and teach us how to use those tools.  This is how you create a Map with Layers.  This is how you animate a Waterfall.  This is how you create an Enemy Event.  Not just a Help File.  Sure, it has usefulness, but different people learn differently.  We need examples.  Not just of Maps, but Boss Battles, of Shops, of Transitions, of Puzzles.  We need them to build themselves a game, even a crappy one, to see what their products are missing.  If Steve Jobs did not use an iPhone, do you think they would have sold as well as they did?  I doubt it. 

 

And there in lies the dilema.  Enterbrain is not using the products that they create for the purpose for which they were created.  Until that is resolved, the RM series will continue to go downhill and eventually circle the drain into oblivion.  What I do believe is once that happens, and certain things are realized that they need to be addressed by Enterbrain, we still have the potential to see an RPG Maker that is superior to RPG Maker XP in every possible way, including the ever important Sales figures.

Edited by Heretic86

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I agree with Lucas (Pol), and Heretic86 offered a lot of great comments and problems with VX. I just cannot find any part of me that would switch, fully, over to VX or even ACE. It might be something I would mess with for non-serious games or just to mess around with it, but XP has way more advantages to it. The only good thing I can think of that VX has is its newer RGSS, which I can't say is all that much of a "push" since it can now be "used" in XP.

 

XP and 2003 for me. Both have a charm that VX doesn't have and probably will never have.

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I've said what I thought about VX-ace in another thread year ago:

 

The fact that they made an engine that is exactly like VX should tell that they don't care. The only thing different is the fact it uses Ruby 1.9.3 and they changed the GUI in the database a bit then it was before. However I don't see what probablem your having as I have all three engines on my computer.

I personally use XP, and don't even touch VX anymore since ace was released. Pol, and Heretic86 basically said everything else.

 

7) RMVX Ace-- The biggest pile of shit so far. They simply UPDATED a few things that was wrong with VX (and none that actually meant anything) and added a few new features. So in truth people are buying something that could have been released as a FREE patch. This is like Sony creating a Bly-ray player that doesn't update the firmware for the blu-ray drive and forces you to buy a new blu-ray player instead.

This made me lol.

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